All About God…err…I mean god

Maybe Dawkins uses God as a way to address the monotheistic Gods (isn’t that an oxymoron!) Whereas those who prefer to use god (like myself) simply refer to all gods.
Interesting.

I generally use “God” because of grammar. Plus it makes it abundantly clear that I mean the Christian God.

For my own use, I often use them interchangeably, depending on my mood. I generally use the capital G when talking about the Christian Deity “God”, just as I use a capital Z when talking about the Greek Deity “Zeus”. The same way most people use Santa Claus – it is a name, even if the named thing isn’t real. It’s pretty much just the convention of the English language (grammar as Bob Kowalski said)

I was raised Jewish, so the Christian god is not the first one that always comes to mind.

We don’t capitalize most common nouns (“man”, “dog”, “nation”, “fictional character”), but we do capitalize proper nouns (“William”, “Fido”, “Canada”, “Dumbledore”). Notice that it doesn’t matter whether the thing being referred to exists in the real world or not, as in the Dumbledore example.

The reason “god” isn’t capitalized when referring to, say, the Greek gods is that it isn’t a proper noun in that context. Proper names of individual Greek gods such as Zeus, Athena, etc. are capitalized.

The confusion arises from the fact that the word “god” is used as both a common noun and a proper noun in English. The Christians use it as the proper name of their god, analogous to names like Zeus or Athena. The word “tiger” is a common noun, so it isn’t capitalized, but if there were one specific tiger whose name was “Tiger”, then it would be capitalized when being used as that tiger’s name. Same thing.

The phrase “the Christian god” is tricky because it can be used in two subtly different ways. If it’s “god” as a common noun, as in “the Christian god as opposed to the Greek gods”, then it’s not capitalized, but if you’re referring to God by name and just using “Christian” as an attribute (analogous to saying “that German guy, Heinrich”), then it’s capitalized.

All the confusion would be avoided if the Christian god has a proper name which was not the same as the common noun “god”.

I only use caps for god when it is the first word in a sentence. Plus the lowercase “g” really irritates Christians which is the important part right? lol!

Here’s a conspiracy theory in reference to
“All the confusion would be avoided if the Christian god has a proper name which was not the same as the common noun “god”.”

Maybe it was orchestrated in order to create “the one” monotheistic faith of the times. As the Roman Empire was falling apart such a thing could easily cement it back together by creating an umbrella of religious ideology in the guise of imperialism. Without the ability to identify one particular “god” the failing empire could easily be sneaky inserting itself into other faith traditions. The Roman Emperor is not dead, he is Pope Benedict XVI.

if its Jesus or Zeus or Yahweh, then they are names. I just don’t think that “God” is a name.

I should have thought of that — “Yahweh” (or more commonly in English “Jehovah”) is the proper name of (or a proper name for) the Christian god. Christians do use “God” in the same way, though.

As the Roman Empire was falling apart such a thing could easily cement it back together by creating an umbrella of religious ideology in the guise of imperialism.

Ever notice that the Roman Empire lasted half a millennium with all that paganism and perversity people talk about, but after it became officially Christianized, it collapsed within a few decades?

The Roman Emperor is not dead, he is Pope Benedict XVI.

Whose real name is Joseph Ratzinger, or as I prefer to call him, “He Who Zings Rats”.

“My question is this: if there is any doubt or confusion on the existence of something, then how is it a proper noun?”

I must take that back. I realize that even fictional characters are capitalized. I was trying to go along the idea that if god doesn’t exist..but I come from the standpoint that I don’t believe and the chance is very very small. So I think I confused myself. :/

Aside from that, I still feel that when I address god, if its Jesus or Zeus or Yahweh, then they are names. I just don’t think that “God” is a name.

“Plus the lowercase “g” really irritates Christians which is the important part right? lol!”

LOL is right. Sometimes you have to diminish their theories with reality.

If capitalization is a form of respect, then I choose lowercase g or put the word in quotes “God” to indicate that it is another person’s decision to grant it the power and glory of the upper case initial letter. I also like to replace god with dog, as in “thank dog for that.”

We use a capital “G” for God for the same reason we use a capital “Z” for Zeus–whether the character actually exists is irrelevant to whether his name is a proper name.

As for using Yahweh, I do that a lot when referring to the OT god, but it’s not completely accurate. First, there’s more than one word used for God in the OT, and each is translated differently depending on the version of the Bible. Actually Yahweh is rarely translated “God” (I can’t think of any time when it is, but I’m too lazy to look). Normally when you see “God,” “god” or “gods” in the OT, the underlying word is Elohim, a plural proper noun referring to the entire Canaanite pantheon (e.g., “In the beginning, Elohim created…” and “you shall have no other elohim before me…”) And don’t forget Adonai–it is usually translated “Lord” as in “Adonai is my shepherd, I shall not want…” Adonai was the name the Phoenicians used for the god the Hebrews knew as Tammuz and is the basis of the Greek god Adonis. As for Yahweh, that’s usually translated “LORD” (using small caps) in English versions of the Bible.

And then there’s El, the head of the Canaanite pantheon, and Eloah, the singular form of Elohim, but I won’t get into those here.

So, considering just the OT alone for now, you couldn’t really pick just one of those names for the Judeo-Christian god if you wanted to use something besides “God.” And if you did, you’d be compounding their error because many of us believe that the names translated to refer to the Judeo-Christian god in the OT actually referred to separate deities originally. This is lost in translation, especially with respect to Yahweh and Adonai–LORD and Lord, respectively.

Beyond that, you then go to the New Testament, with completely different words (and concepts) for God. FWIW, I never use “God” to refer to Jesus. I always refer to Jesus as either “Jesus” or “Christ” or both, but never “God.” But “God the Father” is a different matter. Christians equate him with the OT god, even though they are very, very different. We could argue with them about that–and sometimes we do–or we can just follow convention and focus on the more important issues.

As for me, I’ll probably just stay with the convention of capitalizing God. Our intent isn’t to piss off Christians. That doesn’t do us or the world any good in and of itself. On the contrary, we want to convince them that we are decent people with beliefs worth listening to. It’s simple salesmanship. Do you walk into a Star Trek convention and tell everyone to ‘Get a life?’ Of course not, not if you want them to listen to anything you have to say. Christians (and Jews and Muslims and virtually all other God-based religions and cults) are at a place right now where they’d be patently offended at our departure from convention here. It’s not worth the trouble that would cause, especially if we want them to care anything about what we have to say.

Infidelis Maximus

For me it is not an issue of do I want to convince them. I could care less if they believe in god, santa, or the tooth fairy. If they give my world view respect then I will give theirs respect. A very close friend of mine is a very devout Christian and we discuss religion all of the time without butting heads. Those Christians who bitch, whine, moan, and complain about something as trivial as a lower case “g” in god deserve to be pissed off over and over again.

Angelsdepart: For me, it’s just common sense. They’re the majority, and most of us wish they weren’t. We wish we lived in a reason-based world. That can happen by them having an epiphany of sorts and suddenly realizing their beliefs are crap, or it can happen gradually by reasoning with them and eventually winning over those on the fringes–over and over, until there are no fringes. Regardless of whether God exists, using a lowercase “g” is poor grammar when referring to the character in Judeo-Christian mythology just as it would be were we to write “adonis” instead of “Adonis.” It’s not worth the trouble–it will only piss people off and has no real upside. It has the appearance of being juvenile and petulant, and it’s something we should avoid–IMHO.

Well, if you really wanna piss ‘em off spell it “gawd”

I don’t know about angelsdepart or any others who use “g”, but I’m still not convinced “God” is the name of their god. I think its Jesus, Yahweh, Allah, etc.

When I’m discussing something about god, it is not about their god (anyone is selfish to think that). It could be any god. I could be referencing Zeus or one of the many Hindu gods.

I’m not trying to piss anyone off…to be honest it didn’t even occur to me until angelsdepart pointed it out.

I try to use proper grammar in other facets, but in this case I just don’t believe its a proper noun.

Hussy: If you’re referring to a specific character, rather than the general deity concept, proper grammar says uppercase the “G.” If it’s the general concept, then lowercase is proper. So, if you say, “Unlike the god worshiped by the Hebrews, the Greek god Zeus had a known origin…”–you’re spot on. But if you say, “God created the heavens and the earth in six days and rested on the seventh,” you’re also right because here “God” is a specific character. Calling him Yahweh wouldn’t be appropriate in this case because YWHW isn’t used in that passage, Elohim is, and using Elohim would be even more meaningless to the general reader than Yahweh or Jehovah is. My advice: stick with the “G” convention and fight about the things that matter.

If the religious sort “are at a place right now where they’d be patently offended at our departure from convention here”,who cares?

I for one am sick and tired of hearing how we have to kiss their ass and not offend.

I am Offended when I see “in god we trust” on my cash. That’s the last non-entity I would trust.

If the conventional wisdom dictates we respect their poppycock, I reject the conventional wisdom. It obviously has not worked for thousands of years.

‘My advice: stick with the “G” convention and fight about the things that matter.’

Thanks anyway but I don’t plan on flip-flopping my position any time soon. I strongly believe that god is not a proper noun or name. I have taken an abundance of English classes so I know “the rules”.

Just because Christians use “God” as a name for their god, it doesn’t mean I have to accept it without a say. I think they use incorrect grammar. Oh, but their god is too holy to have a lowercase “g”…

I rarely talk about a specific god because they are all equal in my eyes. Its selfish of the Christians to think I’m referring to their god. And if I were referring to the Jewish god, I’d have to spell it “G-d”.

Infidelis Maximus, are there special spelling rules for each god that you think I should know?

Also,
If Christians use “God”, they do so because they are within the religion. I will not (nor should I be expected to) follow rules intended for people within a group in which I do not belong to.

Hussy, it’s not just Christians that use a capital “G,” it’s pretty much everyone who speaks English :-) Even most atheists refer to the main monotheistic god with a capital letter, just as they would Buddha or Krishna or Jesus.

I guess I don’t see the point of discussing this further. You’re certainly entitled to do whatever you want. But the argument that the Christians have it wrong because they are referring to a being that you (and I) believe does not exist does not hold up logically. As I and others have already said, his existence or non-existence does not matter in this case. I don’t happen to believe Jesus of Nazareth actually existed, either, but I still uppercase the name when discussing the character from the Bible because it is a proper name.

FWIW, I do not use capital pronouns when referring to the Judeo-Christian god (or any other). That’s one case where I think they’re taking the concept too far and are using incorrect grammar themselves. I use the same rules with their god that I do with any other–I capitalize the name if it’s a proper name, and I lower case pronouns for it just like I would for any other deity.

BTW, I didn’t mean to insinuate you don’t know basic grammar in case it came across that way. Just stating my position.

BTW #2, not all Jews write God as G-d. I have several relatives who are Jewish, and they don’t. I’ve written in more detail about this in my What’s in a Name post.

I’ve clearly hit a nerve here and didn’t mean to. My apologies. Let me restate:

I’m not saying there’s only one right way. From a grammar standpoint, there’s no question that capital “G” is called for when referring to the primary monotheistic deity, just as it would were we talking about Gilgamesh. But that doesn’t mean you have to follow that rule. I’ve simply been trying to say that, in my opinion, there’s no good reason not to. IOW, there’s no debate about what is correct grammatically. But I respect your right to deviate from that if you want to. It’s not as though English grammar rules were written in stone. If you want to make a statement about your contempt for Christians, Jews, or the Judeo-Christian deity, that’s certainly your right.

On the Jewish thing, I’m descended from Jews myself, but most of my family stopped practicing a couple generations ago. My mother was even born in a Jewish hospital. I’ve been to Jewish events my whole life and still have some relatives who are devout. Some Jews avoid saying/writing “God;” some don’t. If you’ll read the post I linked, you’ll see that this is actually due to a misinterpretation of a passage in Leviticus.

Anyway, I certainly don’t mean to come across as saying there’s only one right way here. My suggestion is that you just follow the normal grammatical rules. In my opinion, not doing so won’t accomplish anything and will just irritate religious people. It’s like showing up to debate them in a Speedo–it’s just disrespectful out of the gate and will only cause trouble. If we ever expect any of them to listen to us, it works against that. But that’s just my opinion–please do whatever you’re comfortable with. I have been wrong before and certainly could be here. Either way, I’ll keep reading your blog with enthusiasm, just as I do every day :-)

Well, I was taught in Hebrew school that one had to use “G-d”. Don’t tell me about “Jews”. I was raised Jewish (as I’ve mentioned many times), grew up in a Jewish community, went to Hebrew and Sunday school for a few years, and was Bat Mitzvah’d in front of the Wailing Wall. (Not that the “Bat Mitzvah” means anything since women aren’t equal.)

But if different people do things different ways, then why are you so insistent on your way being the only way. I don’t care how you use it, but I’m defending my position.

You really came off like your way is right and that’s it. That seems kind of rude. And that’s one of the things that theists try to hold against us.

God is not a name and I don’t think you have convinced me otherwise. If everyone uses it differently, then I am not expected to know all their rules.

If you don’t see a point in arguing further than don’t. But I won’t change my mind because you said its the only right way. I have a say and can make my point, too.