Moral Dilemma: Leather vs. Plastic

It seems to me that leather has always been a moral option – cows and pigs are already killed for meat (and I see no moral problem with killing for food), so the more of the carcass that is used, the better.

Sorry I’m a couple weeks late to the party. I just found this blog. But I know a fair bit on the subject and would like to provide information that might help you out.

These are issues that get rather more complicated and extend into other major issues. Namely, global warming (not just in plastics) and the slow destruction of the species. (No I’m not going to scream about some crazy global conspiracy, just some things that are having a bit of an impact on reproduction.)

I’ll start with plastics, which contain two potent estrogens, the scientific names of which I am unable to readily summon to mind and is a leading factor in the rise of intersexed and transsexual conditions as well as a widespread reduction of sperm count. In minor doses, it affects little. It would be much like saying that consuming soy is going to turn you into a transsexual because of the estrogens it contains. However, plastics are a large part of everyday life. They surround us in our containers, our grocery bags, our shoes and many other sources. While it’s not going to have much affect on an already grown person, it matters quite a bit more in the case of pregnancies. Pre-natal development is determined by varying doses of estrogen and testosterone and the amount of these estrogens seeping into the woodwork from plastics have, as previously stated, influenced a rise in trans/interesexed conditions and have physically feminized a number of men to some degree reducing sperm counts. In the case of global warming, you seem to already be aware of the contribution in its production process. (Though you may not be aware that recycling plastic is more detrimental than making it fresh. When you combine the extra gas used to collect recycled goods, the fact that recycling is an industrial process itself, and that 60% of recycling products are transported to a landfill anyway, it starts looking less appealing. Even less so when you find that landfill space is not rapidly shrinking and disappearing, contrary to popular belief, and that landfills produce natural gas used for energy, it seems even less so. But enough of this. I’m getting off topic.)

On to wearing leather and vegetarianism/veganism. Though similar problems with estrogens come into play for foods grown outside of the U.S., because of certain pesticides that have been banned in the U.S. for decades but are still in widespread use internationally, the big focus here is global warming. Cows produce considerable amounts of gas that affects the ozone, and I do not know if you have an issue with grain fed versus naturally grazed cows, but I do know that naturally grazed cows produce quite a bit more. In a way, using leather and eating meat is helping the environment. Though I agree, fur with the head still on…creepy.

Moving away from the “scare” topics and getting somewhat off the leather vs. plastic topic and delving more into the vegetarianism/veganism side topic. (Although I have to say, I never found them particularly scary, just issues that need to be addressed.) I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, nature can be a cruel bitch. Many animals survive off of feeding on each other. It’s not pretty, but it is what it is. It may be a bit esoteric on my part, but the lion is not going to think much when she (the females are the hunters) rips me apart, and I’m not going to think much when I eat a burger. Although the counter-argument to that is with the evolution of our higher brain functions and ability to survive on veggies, we can forego many natural things such as eating meat. My additional thoughts on this, especially in my snarkier moments, is that sure we won’t use our slaughter houses to do quick kills, we’ll let them out into the wild instead to be ripped apart slowly and painfully by natural predators.

A bit of an aside and getting almost entirely off-topic at this point, I’ve never quite gotten the milk and cheese thing. I’ve always seen them as something produced for the purpose of being eaten. That’s the only thing it’s there for. The eggs I get. It’s similar to the abortion issue and involves at what point you think life begins. Now I haven’t known *that* many vegans, so my pool is a bit short here, but if you know the answer, I am truly curious, as others have not provided me with one, what is the issue with milk and cheese?

Anyways, I’ve talked quite a bit, strayed a fair ways off topic at times, so I’ll just do a quick summation on how I deal with these issues and shut up. My take is moderation. I try to reduce the amount of plastics I use though until it starts being replaced on a wide scale by something else (probably some sort of cheap ceramic alloy) there’s only so much I can do. When it’s come to leather, I’m with mark on this one.

Hi. I’ve been lurking for awhile but thought I’d chime in on this one. First off, I’m vegan so I’m biased, let’s just get that out of the way right now. I know veganism can be healthful based not only on the fact that some societies lived basically as vegans (tiny bits of fish or insects), but also based on shared knowledge from Dr. Michael Greger and Dr. Neal Barnard. It’s not right for everyone at every time, but remember each little bit helps in the global warming fight and also increases compassion for the other earthlings.

I have to say that I’m torn also when buying products such as wallets because I refuse to use animal products (also note that leather doesn’t biodegrade, like, ever!) but also don’t want to support the use of plastics. So my first answer was simply: hemp. My first vegan wallet was hemp but I overstuffed it and it wore out after about 8 months. I loved it though. Someone gifted me an (unreturnable) pleather one so I’ve been using it and it doesn’t show any wear after about 3 years. So, think about the hemp. There are also recycled bicycle tire wallets which are cool, but might smell like bike tires. And you could also look at thrift stores. Thrifting is always good for off-the-grid purchases.

Based on your comments about animals and feminism, I suggest you read The Sexual Politics of Meat. It’s intense.

And, to Elle, a couple of things (hope no one minds!). Firstly, humans don’t need meat to survive; not like the big cats which are true carnivores. We are said to be herbivores, but really are frugivores like the other apes. We should eat fruits, nuts, seeds, leaves and insects. Don’t get me started on B12 (the only essential nutrient not typically found in a vegan diet); suffice to say it used to be available on plants but we live in an unnatural world so we supplement! Most of us vegan think that if we don’t require meat, then there’s no reason to participate in the suffering. I’m not trying to convert anyone, just explaining the stance.

Also, Elle, about the dairy products. You are correct that cow’s milk is for eating; it’s for the calves to eat. It has been “designed” (by natural selection, nothing else!) to provide all the nutrients need to take a 70-100 pounds calf up to 500-1000 pounds in a year or so. Human milk is “designed” to feed human babies. We are the only species which drinks the milk of another. Cow’s milk is implicated in a myriad of human diseases. It’s just not meant for us.

Beyond that, if one refuses to eat veal, one should not eat any dairy products because the milk used to make those products was taken away from a baby calf in order to feed humans. If that calf was a male, it became a veal calf; thus, the veal industry exists only because the dairy industry exists. In addition to that, some have issues with cows being forced to calve every year without a break (for they, like us, do not produce milk unless they have just given birth) until her production goes down and then she’s killed, usually 20 years prior to when she would die in the wild.

Sorry for the babble. I get riled up about dairy products because the animals are treated so badly, even when compared to beef cattle.

I’m entirely late on this post. (Like, a month.) I haven’t really been on my computer much as of late. Anyway, thank you for explaining some things. I want to apologize if my post came off as virulent towards vegetarianism and veganism, it was getting late and I was tired and looking back on it, it seemed to come across as much harsher than any intention I had. I can see some of your case, though there also appears to be some holes. In the interest of enlightened discussion, because I love to question everything, I want to put out a few comments and hopefully it won’t seem too negative as I am really not intending to be.

I am curious to know who has said that we are herbivores. (Or frugivores,a new term for me. Nuts and berries has always fallen under the herbivore category when I’ve heard it spoken of or read of it.) Everything I’ve either heard or read on the subject has stated that we are omnivores.

I don’t think a comparison to other apes four our behaviors is particularly apt, as we are quite different from our ancestral cousins. Taking for instance that out of all the apes, we are the only hairless ones. We have an (admittedly incomplete) evolution of a pair-bond. Other apes tend to be a bit more promiscuous than our species. There are other things as well though I don’t want to get sidetracked into a massive discussion of differences.

Unfortunately, I don’t think it’s possible for everyone to even consider the sentiment of whether or not they should participate in the consumption of meat. For some, it is simply outside their budget like my roommates and I who have talked about vegetarianism as a means to lose weight but it’s not financially feasible to get all the variety and nutrients necessary in our diet. For others, it simply doesn’t agree with their environment. Like places in Africa where there is just not enough vegetation to support the entire community. It also occurs to me as I think about it, that there is not enough to go around for everyone to not be meat eaters. We are already a little short on agriculture in many places with our vast species population, and without meat it just doesn’t seem possible to feed the world. And as I think more on it, if we were all to go plant for our meals, it would probably start to eat into the food supply of other herbivores. Which would eat into the food supplies of carnivores. We’re probably going to need more advanced agricultural technology before it becomes feasible. Like tower thing I’ve heard about.

I am curious about the excess of milk and how much there may or may not be. I know when my little sister was born, the vast majority of my mother’s milk was wasted. She stored it up bottle after bottle everytime there was too much build-up and pressure and overall probably about 1/4 or so actually went to my little sister. The rest was just thrown away.

I think disease is a poor argument. In this day and age when our food and drinks are so thoroughly cleaned, it can be easy to forget that many other sources of food and water are mired with disease. It would be difficult to count all the diseases that poorly filtered or unfiltered water is implicated in. And milk provides nutrients that we do need. Like calcium and vitamin D. Not to say that it’s the only source or anything, just that it is not entirely useless to our health.

You seem to be making quite a leap here with veal and dairy products. I can agree that it is most likely a contributing factor. But I think it is a mistake to pin it as the cause. I largely suspect, that even if milk production for humans suddenly stopped, veal would still be consumed. Many people like the taste of it. Something about how good it is. Didn’t seem all that extra great to me the one time I tried it. Though some social science experimentation would be required to prove my hypothesis, I do think that the cause is simply demand. I suppose that’s not so much a disagreement overall, as a disagreement of the terms.

Your last point is something to chew on. It will be something for me to think about. I can’t say it’s entirely new to our human history, considering how in many cultures up until recent times women were considered baby factories.

I hope I did not bring about any offense. I am not trying to convert or anything, just present information and questions on the subject. I apologize again for the way my last post read and I wish there was a way to edit it. (Or if there is, I feel a bit silly and don’t know how. Blogging commentary is not something I do often.)

Thank you all for chiming in. This is the kind of debate I wanted to see some of. Forgive me for not giving my two cents, but I’m still stuck on the fence here. You both bring up some excellent points. I will not respond to all of them, because there are just too many.

But I do want to mention that leather does biodegrade, it just takes a while.

Also, the point about hemp. Yes, I do use some hemp but when we’re talking about working in the professional corporate world, most of us can’t wear hemp or canvas shoes most of the time, so its comes down to leather vs. plastic. No designer, as of yet, has put a product out there for me to buy that is a reasonable third choice.

I also wanted to note that we are omnivores because we have pointed teeth, like cats. We do not have flat teeth like herbivores. We also have conscious thought, so we can choose to not eat meat for the good of our animal counterparts.

Thanks again for the discussion.